I listened to an informative Real Reporter interview with a Russian private entrepreneur and drone developer, Sergey Tovkach, on the innovations in drone warfare. Here are some highlights.
The Drone Race Standings: Ukraine, Russia, West, & China
He spoke about Russia being slow to understand the importance of drones in warfare. He noted Ukraine had been using drones for surveillance, dropping explosives, and even kamikaze missions since 2014, but Russia was slow to adapt. He noted the West was as well and said,
“There isn’t a single Western drone that’s proven itself effective in this conflict. … Ukrainian drones are outperforming the entire Western lineup.”
He said Americans have been “chasing camels” for decades. “They haven’t faced a real military with serious weapons and tactics since WWII. Now they’re up against an actual adversary in Russia.” He acknowledged the US defense industry and scientific community are not fully engaged and estimated probably only 5% of its capabilities are being used in this war, but “that 5% has utterly failed to show any real results.”
He said he’d also put Ukraine ahead of Russia, because of the way their system is setup. It allows private developers to work directly with the military.
“[Ukraine] can push a prototype to the frontline in no time. Here in Russia, it’s the opposite. It’s all uphill.”
He explained Russia didn’t have private enterprise. Their defense sector is a closed off, self-contained world, and for a private company to breakthrough requires navigating legal and bureaucratic madness. This is slowly changing bit by bit.
“Private developers, simply because they’re more flexible and more motivated, can innovate much faster – way faster than these slow clunky state owned enterprises where half the staff is just there to collect a paycheck.”
Interviewer asks, “China is clearly making progress too, right?”
“Here’s where China runs into trouble: They tend to make weapons that feel more like toys. The issue is they just don’t have real combat experience, so they don’t understand what military equipment needs to be. … Because they lack wartime experience, their military designs are still lacking where it matters.”
He also noted the edge Ukraine has since it has access to the entire western market. He says he rarely encounters a Ukrainian drone using Chinese chips whereas Russia’s access is restricted. But he goes on to note Chinese chips are considerably more affordable with only a slight deficiency in capability (currently).
Anticipated Post War Innovations
“The drones we’re seeing now in this conflict are basically toys. Most of them run on Chinese flight controllers and toy grade motors. That’s what’s being deployed to the battlefield. Once the war ends, the first thing that will happen is a major overhaul. These drones will be redesigned as actual military grade products. …No army is going to formally adopt something that feels like it came from a toy store. Right now, we use these makeshift drones because we have to. We need to flood the front with as many strike tools as possible, and we’re willing to overlook how fragile they are, but that won’t last. Drones will evolve. We’ll see major progress in autonomous target recognition and guidance. … The latest chips coming out, like the new ones from Nvidia, they’re changing the game. We’re getting close to the point where it’ll be cheap and viable to build drones that can truly think for themselves.”
Remote Mine Laying and Caltrops
Sergey says remote mine laying is highly effective and has been in use for about a year and a half.
“[Remote mine laying] has just become more widespread lately because we’ve got a lot more drones in circulation. Early in the war, fielding 1,000 drones was a big deal. Now a single assembly line can crank out 40,000 drones per week. What makes remote mine laying so powerful is that it lets you re-mine roads the enemy thinks are safe.”
A supply truck may return across a road it had just safely traversed, but in the short time passed, a drone could have dropped a new mine which causes it to explode. He said fighters are also now utilizing caltrops.
“They’re welding them from rebar. They toss them all over the roads and they shred tires. Keep in mind that tires for military trucks are very expensive the caltrops themselves cost next to nothing, but one handful can blow out the tires on a military truck just like that.”
Sleeper Drones: Fiber Optic Advantage
Sergy said the Ukrainians first started using the tactics of leaving a drone in a location where Russian soldiers would find it. Soldiers would think it to be inoperable after it didn’t move for some hours and attempt to recover it (for spare parts or to reprogram for reuse) and would be subject to remote detonation. Drones can also land on a roof or hilltop and wait for a period as long as their battery life to strike enemy convoys.
And this is a scenario where the fiber optic drones were a game changer. A fiber optic drone is tethered by a fiber optic cable, unlike standard FPV drones, which are wireless and use radio signals. Those radio signals are vulnerable to jamming. Because the feed travels through a cable, it consumes a lot less energy while idle and can lay and wait for longer periods than wireless FPVs. The Russians were the first to deploy fiber optic drones.
“When these drones first started showing up in the Kursk region, it was an absolute nightmare for the Ukrainians. We’re talking about drones that just sit there hidden, silent almost invisible and then they spring into action at the perfect moment. A Ukrainian military vehicle would drive up thinking the road is clear, and then the drone launches from just 10 or 15 m away. The drivers wouldn’t even have time to react.”
Fiber Optic Weaknesses
- The cable can catch and reflect sunlight and a drone flying above may be able to detect those signatures.
- The cable can be followed back to the operator.
- The cables clutter up the battlefield and can be a hazard to assault teams on bikes.
- The weight of the spool of cable reduces the amount of explosive payload the drone can carry.
My Note: I also just watched this video of an FPV drone severing the cable of a FO drone with its rotor blades:
Given those limitations, there are still times the wireless FPVs remain the stars of the show. If the enemy has a lot of electronic warfare, the fiber optic drone can be used to neutralize those defenses to clear the path for the heavier payload carrying wireless FPVs to come in and do their work.
“Fiber optic drones are not some wonder weapon. They’re not going to win the war on their own. They’re just one tool in the toolbox. They’ve got strengths, and they’ve got limitations. The key is using them smartly – mainly as a way to neutralize enemy jamming. Once that’s done, once you’ve cleared the airwaves, that’s when your regular FPV drones come in and finish the job.”
Pace of Battlefield Innovation
“The innovation cycle on the battlefield is insanely short right now. We’re talking 2 months. Sometimes less. Whatever breakthrough you come up with today might only work once.”
Starlink is the Holy Grail
They discussed a video promoting Russia’s Orbit system – which uses an internet bridge to create a high speed internet connection at a forward position with a radio link between there and the drone operator – to extend its range. The video showed a drone pilot in Moscow flying a drone over Donbas. Extending the range of wireless FPVs drones is important because of how valuable the pilots are. “A skilled operator doesn’t appear overnight. It takes months, even years, to train one properly.” Orbit’s capability allows for the pilot to stay protected in the rear, while individuals in forward positions ready the drone for launch.
When asked if the capability is revolutionary, Sergey noted with this technology, Russia was actually catching up to capabilities Ukraine already had – utilizing radio relays, internet bridges, and Starlink.
“Starlink honestly is the holy grail. If you ask me what Western technology has worked flawlessly in this war, it’s Starlink. That system has completely transformed how modern warfare looks on the ground. Take away Starlink and Ukraine’s entire fleet of naval drones disappears overnight. I’m not exaggerating. A Ukrainian naval drone is basically just a Starlink terminal with a motor and some explosives strapped to a small boat. That’s it. Remove the Starlink and the whole thing stops functioning. Why doesn’t Russia have naval drones? Well we do have the boats, but we don’t have Starlink. That’s our problem.”
Sergey noted the Orbit system is not perfect. “There’s a noticeable delay in both control response and video feed.” He said this is the case even when Starlink is used to establish the high speed internet connection. So this tactic hasn’t gone mainstream.
Ukrainian Vampire Drones (Baba-Yaga)
Ukraine’s Vampire drone/ Baba-yaga is a heavy agricultural drone which has been repurposed for warfare.
“The vampire drones turned out to be incredibly effective especially after the Ukrainians, about a year ago, figured out how to modify them to drop anti-tank mines. We’re not talking about some small improvised charge. These are real anti-tank mines packed with 6 to 8 kg of TNT.”
“Now imagine dropping not one but three or four of these in quick succession. You can methodically wipe out an entire fortified area, bunker by bunker. …Most of them aren’t even manually piloted. They just fly to pre-programmed coordinates, drop their payload, and leave. … There are some versions connected via Starlink. Those are smarter. If they detect incoming fire, they can identify where it came from, fly over and drop a mine on that position, but that’s rare.”
Russia is ramping up their response.
“We’ve got two full-scale factories currently under construction. Each focused entirely on producing heavy drones similar to the Vampire – using Chinese sourced components. And aside from that, there’s a whole cottage industry garage-based drone builders all making heavy drones in their own way.”
Countering Vampire Drone
“The good news is these vampire drones, despite the damage they can do, are actually fairly easy to bring down – at least with the right setup. All you need is a machine gun with a thermal scope. Drones run hot. Their batteries & motors glows in infrared. It’s like watching a flare move across a dark screen, so from cover, a soldier can track them through the thermal scope and adjust aim by watching the tracer rounds. One good hit to the battery and the drone drops.”
Russia’s Geran (Geranium) Drone
The Geran drone is the Iranian Shahed drone outfitted with all of the Russian mods.
“Geran has moved well beyond its Iranian origins, so when Ukrainians keep calling them Shaheds, they’re wrong. These aren’t Shaheds anymore. It’s been a long time since that label made sense. And honestly, that’s always been Russia’s approach. We start with someone else’s base model, but we improve it fast and then keep developing it independently. For example, we now have a jet powered version of the Garen drone.”
The Sound of an Incoming Geran – Added for Psychological Effect?
“There’s also a Geran variant running on a Wankel engine. That’s what creates that distinct high frequency wine people have been hearing, but there’s also a theory that what’s being used is a new type of Geran fitted with a built-in siren – kind of like the old German Stuka planes that had sound devices specifically designed to intimidate. … That’s the goal of any weapon – to intimidate and overwhelm.”
A sample of their sound:
UKR Interceptor Drones Paired with Israeli Radar Countering Attack Drones
“With the rise of interceptor drones on the Ukrainian side, [the effectiveness of Russian Lancet attack drones] has taken a bit of a hit. .. Interceptor drones are designed to take out other drones – built for high speed. The main idea is it has to be faster than the target it’s chasing. Ukrainians have been pairing their interceptor drones with Israeli made radar systems. That combo has allowed them to start targeting and knocking out Russian drones like the Orlan Zala and even the Lancet.”
Countering Interceptor Drones
“Naturally, Russia is coming up with counter measures. For example, Zala, the company that makes the Lancets, has started adding rear-facing cameras to their recon drones. These cameras use machine vision, and the moment they detect an interceptor closing in, the drone executes an evasive maneuver. Interceptor drones, as I mentioned, are fast, but they don’t have much battery life. If they don’t take down the target on the first pass, they usually run out of juice – either they self-destruct or they just fall out of the sky. Meanwhile, the recon drone just keeps flying.”
Countering Drones with Anti-Drone Rifle Rounds
“One of the most effective tools for fighting drones is special anti-drone rounds for rifles. These are plastic cartridges that burst open when fired and release small pellets.”
Sergey noted why he didn’t mention shotguns.
“First off, carrying a shotgun plus ammo is added weight on top of your standard rifle. Second, today’s drones often carry up to 3 kg of explosives – which is serious, so if you shoot it down with a shotgun and it explodes 5 m from you, the shrapnel’s still hitting you. You’re still in the danger zone. With a rifle loaded with anti-drone rounds, you stay at a safer distance, and you can keep your rate of fire up. The goal is to create a kind of saturation – a cloud of projectiles in the air that gives you a real chance of scoring a hit – even if the drone is moving fast or erratically.”
Weakness of Netting as Counters
“If the target is valuable, the enemy might just send two drones instead of one. The first one can rip through the net. Then the second drone flies in through the opening and strikes the target. Russian fiber optic drones can also deal with nets. … There’s often a small gap at the bottom, and since fiber optic drones can fly at super low altitudes without losing connection, they can just dip under the net, crawl into the gap and wait. We’ve seen more and more Ukrainian videos lately showing these drones getting into those tunnel-like spaces under the netting.”
Fiber Optic Drone Caught in Netting
Lasers as cUAS
“Lasers, honestly, they’re kind of a joke. The atmosphere is full of moisture and when a high-powered laser hits it, it actually starts evaporating that water – basically creating a cloud of steam, so it ends up blinding itself. That’s why you see all these Israeli or American laser demos happening in ideal conditions – dry weather, controlled environments. Yeah, it works in theory, but we’re not seeing widespread use. That said, at around 150 m, lasers can be very effective at that range. … A laser can blind cameras, fry wiring, burn through batteries. A 500 W laser is a great tool, and right now both Russia and Ukraine are actively working on developing short-range laser systems.”
Backpack Jammers Can Produce Signatures for Drone Targetting
“There’s always going to be some frequency that the jammer doesn’t cover. You strap on this massive backpack with 20 antennas sticking out, and then a drone comes flying in. Now you’re supposed to somehow guess what frequency it’s using and turn on the right jammer. What actually happens is you panic, flip everything on at once, and now you’ve just told the entire front line “Hey here’s where our jamming frequencies are.” The enemy sends a drone tuned to a different frequency your backpack doesn’t block (my note: or an FO drone) and boom! It hits the guy carrying the expensive jammer.”
Smart Movement to Counter UAS
“The best defense for infantry is still smart movement. Move fast. Stay unpredictable. Stay in wooded areas – under branches, near vegetation, the places where a drone might get tangled, where its contact fuses might snag on a branch and detonate before it reaches you. That’s what actually works.”
There’s a link to Sergey’s telegram channel in the video description.
As Sergey noted, America’s defense industry isn’t fully engaged in Ukraine. I spent a little time looking through some of the available cUAS options US defense companies have to offer – keeping in mind technology moves fast and a lot of options aren’t disclosed to the public. It’s available here.
